Today is part two of a response to a guy named Robert who posted a comment on an entry last week entitled Fairest Lord Sufficient Above All. You can find part one of this discussion here. We are going to attempt to forward these links to the guy and hopefully he will respond and we can continue the dialog going. Hold To Truth is open to good open dialog that is respectful of people yet honest about our differences.
We will continue to look at his perspective about religion and again my thoughts are in italics:
ROBERT: Second: Religion no longer has a place in the real world. It divides us as a people to choose ignorance over logic, to forsake the future for a ruthless past. A Wall of Separation is supposed to protect us from all religious infringement upon our school’s teachings of science to find real truth and knowledge. Not to pass out fairytales to our children of some aged dogma from an era long dead, our children deserve better.
HOLD TO TRUTH: Children deserve the best potential to learn as possible. You are absolutely right. My oldest child will be starting school soon and that is a concern my wife and I have. We are quite hopeful to put them in a school where there is the best possibility to learn how to learn, and then learn a lot of content also. Science is important. The direction that society is progressing shows that technology is going to be a key component. We hope to provide a balanced understanding of those aspects so our children can think critically about these things. All of those efforts does not guarantee that everything will work out. Science is too broad. It takes more blind faith than belief in Christ. It demonstrates that there is something greater that has to be at work. You can determine the how’s of science but at the core of the conclusion is at least two questions: origin and meaning.
Many of these groups place supernatural abilities on some of its members, born of a virgin or walk on water or cure the blind sick or to fly. Throughout history you will find many who have claimed the same feats, again they are all wrong. No interpretation no matter how subtle can change the fact these are nothing but stories meant to entertain or teach something to the people of that era nothing more.
Religion, as an idea has been with us before recorded history from early man’s worshiping of nature to Charlemagne’s murder of the innocent in the name of Christianity, to jets crashing into towers in the name of Islam. Coerced observance is the main method almost all these religions use. Worship me or you will be tortured for all eternity or murdered out right. Fear mongering, or coercion is tyranny! Remember the Dark Age’s religions rule in that dark, distant past didn’t serve our ancestors well it certainly won’t serve us any better today! These are the labels I proudly wear heretic, infidel, atheist, man of science, freethinker.
HOLD TO TRUTH: Again I believe some time spent looking into the historicity of Jesus would do all of us some good. There are miracles that occur that cannot be explained, to say otherwise would be a bit extreme. What do you do with that? If these are true then its possible to consider that a miracle happened in the first century? And if they were just stories what would be the point of the story? When the God who created all things comes in the flesh to pay the price for the sins of the world what would be the point of that story? While I believe that the account of Jesus is completely true even if you were right there would have to be something pretty profound in the lesson and certainly not just to entertain.
Your perspective of God used to be mine to some degree. Some distant creator with a very large thumb waiting for me to ‘mess up’…..again. But when you actually read through the scriptures you find exactly the opposite. As you state ‘worship me or you will be tortured’ is our perspective. But rather I see it as ‘you are tortured and I have come to set you free.’ You see real problems in this world which tells me you understand there is a sin issue (or moral issue at least.) And I believe by posting this you have not concluded that this is just the way things are supposed to be. So then what is the conclusion? If you stamped out all religion would there not be some other system that would rise up to oppress; to hurt; to condemn?
Third: We put our trust in our elected officials to maintain the wall of separation, to prevent religion’s ever reaching grasp from tainting the consideration of new laws, as well as research designed to help many! This country was not founded on the rule of any ones religion, but more the lack of religious influence in the governing of this country. But time and again you hear religious overtones spouting out of our leaders, The wall is crumbling. The time for the burning of witches, belief in a flat earth, the murdering of doctors, and crimes against women and children or religions many other immoral and vile acts committed against humanity as a whole can no longer and should no longer be tolerated no matter what religious book or god demands it.
Anyone of good conscience should agree with what I have said and ban together, so we can bring this country the very world we live on into the 21st century free of these groups hold on our minds and revel in all the promise this century has to offer so our children’s children’s children will look back in pride an see we did what we did for them and there posterity. This is after all a very small world and a grate leaping point into the vast unknown. I so hope more minds are opened and see beyond the centuries of engrained dogma. I just hope it`s not layed to waste by then.
I would be interested to see how you came to the conclusion that this country was not created on the basis of strong religious beliefs. What with the constitions preamble, and the declaration of independence, etc. Maybe you have a different perspective of the formation of the United States and I do not want to draw conclusions since I do not have enough to work with.
I will say that your last paragraph sounds quite ‘religious.’ You draw a perspective to a morality (good conscience) which necessitates a moral law giver. You derive from that a system of repeatability reaching back to that morality (‘free of these groups’.) You point to a destiny (‘the vast unknown’.) And ascribe ultimate value or worship to pride (‘so our children’s children will look back in pride and see what we did for them’.) Sounds quite religious. The question is since you wrote it you tell me who is the absolute authority in this?
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Can you defend your faith? What can HOLD TO TRUTH do to help you understand the Gospel better? Do you trust God that if he can fix your, pay your, lift your, free your, can he certainly give you the words to explain who Jesus is?